22. Women, Empowerment and Money

Mary: Let’s talk boundaries. I’m here with Yulin Lee. Hi Yulin, thanks for being here.

Yulin: Hi Mary. Thank you so much for inviting me. 

Mary: You’re welcome. Tell us a little bit about you and what you wanna talk about with boundaries today. 

Yulin: Yeah, well, thank you. So I am a woman, a wife, and a mother, and a sister and a friend. Right? We all wear so many different hats. And in my life, under all these different hats I’ve had various life experiences and that has led me to now living the life of my dream. And so I am now a financial coach. And my mission in life now is to take more women on this journey with me, where they get to live the life that they want by their own design.

Mary: How do you do that? 

Yulin: Yeah, so I coach and educate women. So let me, maybe I’ll backtrack a little bit. I used to be a financial advisor and as a traditional financial advisor, we manage people’s assets under, you know, we have assets under management and we do investing on client’s behalf. I also, in addition to that, I have been a real estate investor for 30 years. And so I’ve done all kinds of property investments throughout the years. And it was in back in 2014 when I was living in Paris and I had, that was a period of time where I had a little break from my own careers and really did some soul searching about what I wanna do with my life when I grow up . You know? And and it was really during those months of soul searching, thinking about all the experiences that I’ve had myself and what I’m really interested in, what I’m really passionate about. You know woman issue has always been with me all my life. And so now I was at a place where, you know, I was like, okay, you know, I don’t need to work to put food on the table. I’m in the position where I can pick and choose what I wanna do with my life, how do I wanna make an impact, how do I wanna change, make changes in this world. And you know, again, the woman issue keeps coming up and also just through my previous work, I’ve seen so many discrepancies between how men and women deal with money differently. And so that’s how the money coaching business came about is to empower women to become money savvy and to make better money decisions in their life. And ultimately, and I always say this to every woman that I meet, is to have your own financial independence.

 And when I say financial independence, it is in two ways, right? One is the monetary sense where, you know, you get to do whatever you wanna do and not have to worry about, oh, I still need to pay the bills and put food on the table, right? You know that place where you can really pick and choose. You have the freedom. I mean, that is so powerful, right? And then the other independence is really independent from anybody else, you know, from your spouse, from your partner, from your family, from the society. That if we as women or as individuals, if we love ourselves enough, and if we respect ourselves enough, then we know that we are able to support ourself and make a good living and live the life that we want, on our own. You know, it’s great if you have a partner. That’s awesome, but at the same time, not relying on our own wellbeing on another person. So that’s it. 

Mary: I love it. I love it. So what does this have to do with boundaries? Let’s talk about boundaries. What does money have to do with boundaries? 

Yulin: Yeah. You know, I think boundaries shows up everywhere in how we deal with our money in our, you know, money, financial life. The most obvious one are probably around spending, right? When we talk about budgeting, when we talk about spending, that there is so much of this mindless spending and whether it’s just out of, there was never a habit built growing up to watch what we’re spending, or it could be a result of you know, keeping up with the Joneses, the social pressure, of this is what everyone else is doing. I like to have that. I like to do that as well. Or maybe it’s even, you know, I hear from other women where they are going out to dinner with friends and they feel like they have to buy the dinner for a woman just to be the nice person and I’ll just, they wanna be liked, you know, all of those behavioral issues that we see around. At the end of the day, it’s the lack of boundary of, you know, how much we are spending and where we are spending our money. 

So that’s one area that we see very common. And at the end of the day, any of those patterns, it’s really a reflection of we are using overspending as a way to compensate for something else that’s lacking in our lives. So that’s one big area. And then another big area where I think lack of boundary that shows up and it may not be as apparent to people is the lack of planning, lack of financial planning for their future. There is this thing that we all like love today, which is the concept of living in the present moment and we all say that, we all try to practice that. Right? Including myself. But I think there is subtle distinction between the spirit of living in the present at a spiritual level versus at a financial level, am I just living today and not worry about what I’m gonna, where I’m gonna be 20, 30 years down the road. Do I have enough, you know, to take care of myself? So there’s that very I’m clear. And you know, and unless you pay close attention to, that’s where some of the mistakes or, or confusions people are having, it’s like, well, I’m living for the moment, I’m living for today. You know? Because this is that popular way of thinking and which is great and it totally, you know, at the spiritual level, yes. But at the financial level, we still need to be responsible, in the sense where we’re looking out for our own future and asking ourself, what am I doing today so that I can take care of myself later when I’m, when I don’t wanna work or unable to work.

Mary: Yes. Yes. I love that. The idea of, of living in the present and how that sometimes is misinterpreted to mean like, well then I don’t need a plan. Right? 

Yulin: That’s right. That’s right. 

Mary: And I actually think when we have a plan, we can better show up and be present and that really the, for me, the idea of living in the present is about being connected. Like being connected to myself, to time and space where I’m at, being connected to people that I love and trust who are around me. And being connected to kind of my purpose here. Right? And that, that’s more about the presence, it’s about the connectivity than like, I’m just gonna be like free spirited and go wherever the wind blows kind of thing. you know? 

Yulin: Financially. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that, that’s right. So you and I were exactly on the same page that there’s, you’re making that distinction between a spiritual journey versus your financial responsibility. 

Mary: Yes. Yes. Well, I wanna get back a little bit to the idea of mindless spending or overspending around generosity and how that shows up as boundaries for people. And you gave the example of you go out to dinner and kind of have that urge to pick up the tab. Like, you wanna pay the check for you and all your friends. And that, that is a generous thing, right? Like with an intention of generosity. But how that might be not the best decision for you financially at the time. And how does that relate to boundaries? 

Yulin: So words are powerful. Right? So in the scenario that you just described, the word I’m hearing is generosity. And so that makes us feel good about ourselves. But do we need to be generous in that moment? Because we can be generous anywhere, to anybody. To any beings or any causes, right? But at the same time, you know, the whole concept of being money savvy is about being strategic in how we allocate our resources. And so if you happen to be with friends, you know they’re having financial difficulty and you are picking up the tab, awesome right? But I think in most cases, when things like that happen, it’s really about their self-image. They wanna appear to be generous. And so that in itself, again goes back to, you know, the, cause, you know, personally, I think the root cause for lack of boundary is lack of self-confidence. That you are not sure about yourself. So therefore you have to do all these things to reaffirm to yourself that you are number one, a generous person, and number two, therefore your friends will all like you. But all of those, like I said earlier, is if you dig a little deeper, it’s all for compensating something that’s lacking in yourself. And that lack is lack of self confidence. So when you’re confident about yourself you can be very discreet in where you’re generous and where you don’t need to be. And not picking up the tab doesn’t make you not generous. Right? And so it’s really understanding where and when you are being generous and, and so that’s where I think the lack of boundary shows up is actually the lack of clarity of, you know, what is my role and what is my responsibility? As as an individual in the society, right? If I’m seeing somebody who’s really having a financial difficulty, yeah, let me buy dinner for you. Let me buy lunch for you, but oftentimes that’s not necessarily the case. And in all practicality maybe your friends, like they, they’re doing great. Maybe they’re even doing better than you are financially, you know? 

Mary: Yes. So I agree with you. In fact, when I’m working with women, often the foundational principles that we are working on, we start with building confidence, right? We start with self-worth, self-esteem, self-confidence, all of those, because I do agree that underneath our boundary issues there’s usually some work to do around confidence. And I also think that sometimes we see overspending or, you know, what appears to be generosity as kind of people pleasing with our money. You know? The idea of like, you know, I want this person to feel happy, and so I’m gonna give them a gift. Or I want this person to like me, and so I’m gonna pick up the tab, right? So really being honest with ourselves about what’s our reason or what’s our reason for that. And, it’s not that we have to decide what’s better for me versus what’s better for them. It’s not like one person is more important than the other. We teach people that everyone is equally valuable, that you are valuable, and so is everyone around you, that you’re born valuable, that your value is given to you, and that everyone has the same value. So really just deciding, like showing up and deciding, what’s okay for me? What’s not okay for me? What am I willing to participate in versus what I’m not willing to participate in, right? And so how do you see that around people’s decisions about how they spend their money? How does that show up in your work with women?

Yulin: Yeah. You know, making decisions is actually very tough. And I think part of it is again, goes back to their self-confidence or lack of, that they’re just unsure about the decisions that they make. And therefore they don’t make clear decisions. Another factor is because they’re not confident about themselves, even with the decisions that they do make, they sometimes is very easily swayed by external things that come across, that comes through in their lives. And so, so, yes. So I totally agree with you as a coach, helping clients to make that decision is really the first step. And that’s, you know, one of the things I said, you know, in my book that I published last year called Unleashed is the first step is to decide that you are going to be the CFO of your life. And, and like you said, you know, it’s, once you decide then all the other things fall into place accordingly. But at the same time you know, as a coach, I also recognize it’s actually not that easy of a step to say, oh, just go make a decision. Just do it. Right? I think for those of us maybe who have gone through the workout ourselves, and now we’re at a place where like, yeah, just do it and you know, what’s a big deal about if it fails. But just also I, I totally recognize that for them if they haven’t gone through the work themselves it’s not as easy as we say.

Mary: Yes. And that confident decision making, we’re in agreement that that’s part of what we need to learn. And I believe that that’s a learned skill. Tell me a little bit, your thoughts around that. 

Yulin: Yeah. And, I’m happy you brought this up because I always talk about, you know, how to build self-confidence around money. Right? I love positive affirmations and I do that myself and all of that, but I think it takes more than just the positive affirmation. Because if you are not taking actions, coupling yourself affirmation you’re telling yourself you are good at something, but deep down, because you don’t practice. You are really not technically good, right? And so, so it’s this you know, it’s this duality of like, mentally I’m trying to tell myself I’m good, I’m good, I’m good. But then you’re not taking action to actually practice. So what I say is to truly build your confidence, it takes both of believing in yourself, that you can do good work in any area that you desire. But it also takes practice. And it’s nothing personal. I mean, if you look at sports, if you look at all the athletes, if you look at the Olympic athletes, they’re at top of the world in their areas because they freaking practice so much every day for however many hours that they do. Right? So that is part of the discipline. 

We have to step up and own it and say, you know, I wanna be good with money. I’m gonna practice, I’m gonna practice by checking my statements. However, you know, whatever the frequency that you desire to have, I’m gonna read, I’m gonna listen to financial news, I’m going to read stuff about personal finance, do whatever it takes. It’s kind of like cooking. If you say, Hey, I wanna learn how to cook, what do you do? You go online or you go to a cookbook and recipe and say, oh, so here are the recipes. Here are the ingredients I’m gonna go buy and I’m gonna try this recipe. Same thing with finance, right? So to me that’s how you really build confidence is believing in yourself, but then you also have to step up, practice to sharpen your skills. And there’s, there’s really no magic to that. 

Mary: I agree. And making and keeping those commitments to yourself, you know, over time builds that confidence. So there’s some literature out there that talks about how having better boundaries, Leads to financial success. I would love to know your thoughts about that. What do you see in regards to that?

Yulin: Yeah. Well, so we can kind of dive into the other two points I was gonna talk about too, which is the power dynamics between couples. And, and the reason I, I wanna bring this up is because one of my specialty in my financial coaching is working with women going through divorce. And the typical story, the typical idea is that these women have decided they’re gonna commit themselves to taking care of the family, taking care of the kids, and let the guy to go out and make money and make all the financial decisions. So this divide and conquer, and I will say this, it works as long as the couples stay together. But in today’s modern world, 50% divorce rate, no matter where you are in the world, the chances of the couple splitting is very, very high. And so when that happens, the person who has lost their own identity has lost any control or visibility into the family finances. Now you are getting the double whammy. And so you’re not only dealing with divorce trauma, you’re also dealing with holy cow, how am I gonna support myself going forward financially? And that is a huge, huge thing. Right? So when you talk about boundary, how boundary, you know, affects the financial success for someone? Well, you know, to not ever put yourself in that vulnerable position is to never let go of the financial responsibilities. And I don’t care how happily you are married, like, you know, because all of those women who, you know, are coaching with me or have coached with me, few years back they didn’t see it coming either. It was somebody else’s story for them as well. Right? And it doesn’t matter if you are not making money, you should still be involved with all the financial decisions. And I’ve just seen so many stories of women letting go. Even the, the women who are making the money, who’s the bread winner of the family. They could be so focused on generating income and then completely trust the partner to manage all the family finances. And then boom, he’s like, I’m out of here. 

Mary: Yeah. I do agree. And you know, I used to be a social worker and when I was training case workers to assess for patterns of abuse or violence in family relationships, one of the questions we would ask is, who makes the decisions about the money? And it was not always a direct cause and effect relationship, but when there was violence in a marriage or a family relationship, it almost always was in the direction of the person making decisions about the money having more power and being abusive to the people who didn’t have the decisions about the money. And so I think that we, what I see is that in a partnership, whatever roles and responsibilities you know, that we’re agreeing on I think yes, it works as long as the partnership exists, but it also works when both roles are valued the same, right? So when, if one person is earning money and one person is not earning money, that the roles that they’re contributing are equally valued. Right? And we can have different roles, but that doesn’t mean that we aren’t responsible for what’s going on financially. Right?

Yulin: Unfortunately in real life, you know, I’ve seen too many women going through divorce, haven’t worked for the last 10 years through the divorce, their spouse is telling them, Hey, all this money that we…

Mary: this is my money. 

Yulin: Yeah, it’s my money. It’s my money. So it’s like, you know, I’m being a good guy, here’s a little handout for you, right? So part of ensuring your own financial success is to have that boundary of I am an equal partnership in this marriage in all areas of our family life. And that includes finance. 

Mary: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m willing to participate in the financial decisions. And I’m not willing to be in a situation where I don’t have any power over my finances. Right? 

Yulin: And I think the key here is sometimes for a lot of women, they mistake trust with self-advocacy. Because, you know, what I hear is, oh, I trust my husband, I trust him. And, and that’s great when the relationship is going well. Right? But you can trust and still advocate for yourself. And so that’s, that’s where I think a lot of the, you know, mistakes might have been made is you know, confusing the trust with self-advocacy, which is you should never lose. And then the other part about, you know, how to ensure your own financial success I, you know, with, with boundary I see a lot is showing up in parenting. You know, for how parenting you know, and I have two kids as well. So I can totally relate to this desire as a parent that we wanna give our kids the best in the world. And so it shows up in your day-to-day spending with your kids, right? So if we have this mentality of keeping up with the Joneses for ourselves we are probably doing that with our kids as well. So, you know, my kids have to have this because, you know, her and his friends are having these things, you know, you, you mentioned earlier, all these extracurricular activities. 

Mary: Extracurricular activities. Yeah. 

Yulin: I’m sending her do this. I’m sending her to do that. I’m sending, you know, all of these things. Again, I’m, you know, this is not coming from a judgment place, but it’s more about how can we be more mindful in what we are spending our money on for our children. Mm-hmm. And so on one hand we are now, you know, in our generation we talk about how a lot of the kids having such an entitlement issue but at the same time we created it, right? Because we have this desire and I think all parents do to give the kids the best in the world. But at the same time, I think, you know, in this, our generation or you know, generally speaking, from a money perspective, we are spending way too much on the kids. And then sometimes I also hear parents come and ask about, my kids are gonna go to college in a few years, I don’t have money for their college. So do you, I have a lot of equity in my house. Do you think I should take a home equity line of credit outta my house to pay for the college tuition? 

Mary: Ooh, that’s a dilemma. What do you, what do you think about that? 

Yulin: So if they don’t have any money, other money, and this is really all they have, my personal opinion is like absolutely not. Right? So whether you should pay for your college tuition, again, it’s not a judgment call, but it’s more of a objective evaluation of your own financial wellbeing and say, do I have the money to take care of myself, my own retirement? And beyond that, do I have the money to pay for their college? What about having them to go take some part-time job to pay for some of that? So, So this whole thing about wanting to feel good as a parent but then not setting boundary. Between what I’m willing to spend on my kids versus what I’m willing to give up for myself financially for my future. 

Mary: Yes. And being intentional about that. Right? So I don’t think that we get to decide what’s okay and not okay for someone else in regards to their money decisions. But we do want them to be intentional about it, like okay. So if you say yes to this, what are you saying no to? And if you say no to this, what are you saying yes to? Right? So in that scenario it might be, you know, if you say yes to, you know, the Heloc loan for college tuition, then you might be saying no to being able to retire. Right? 

Yulin: I think in reality that is the missing piece. That oftentimes people focus very much on what they want to get. And they’re not asking themselves the question of what I’m saying no to. What I’m giving up, what’s the cost for doing that? So that is a missing piece.

Mary: Yeah. Yeah. And if we say no to this, what might I be saying yes to? Which is where the financial freedom comes in. Right? It’s like, well, if I say no to this, then what might I be saying yes to if I say no to taking out, you know, a line of credit on my home. I might be saying yes to teaching my child to be self-reliant. I might be saying yes to being able to retire, or I might be saying yes to all of these other things. Right? So my thought about it is the boundaries are just helping us decide what we will and we won’t do. Helping us to decide what we’re willing to participate in, or not willing to participate in, and being intentional about what the yes and the no are. Instead of, well, of course I want my kiddo to go to school and this is what I have, this is the asset that I have, and so I’m going to you know, make this decision without thinking through what the boundary is. 

Yulin: Right, right, right. And I think all of that really comes down to the work of getting very clear on what your core values are as a person. And then also what do you wanna leave behind? What legacy do you wanna leave behind with your kids? And by maybe by saying no to pay for their tuition now your legacy is actually building them up for self-sufficiency, right? And. also, you know, you’re talking about mindfulness, absolutely. It’s also not a either or. When you become mindful, when you learn to be strategic, it could be a combination of everything. 

Mary: Absolutely. 

Yulin: So, you know, it could be, you know, so people might say, oh, but the, you know, college costs, you know, the tuition are so expensive. I don’t want my kid to get out of college with so much debt and which is a valid, totally valid concern but then maybe somewhere in between, between you paying for everything, you know, at the college, full college tuition for four years, or you completely like, set them free and say you’re, you’re on your own now. Maybe there’s something in between, maybe it’s a combination of you can take out a small portion to supplement. Maybe it’s, you know, they go find a job, they take out a loan and then you can supplement that with a certain amount. But all of these things, you have to be very intentional what those numbers would look like and what are the implications for doing that. Right? So if you were to take out the loan on your house, how are you gonna pay it off? How much longer are you gonna have to, you know, work, keep working versus, you know, when the kids get the loan and then there’s so many different scholarships that you can look into and that, that people don’t know about. Right. So it’s really about learning how to be strategic and think strategically, and it doesn’t have to be the either or black and white.

Mary: Yes. Yes. Yeah. And slowing it down, right. To really think through, Awesome. awesome. So there’s a quote that I love and I would love to discuss it with you and kind of maybe wrap up here is, the idea of, the quote is Warren Buffet. And he says that the difference between successful people and really successful people are that the really successful people say no to most everything. Have you heard that before? 

Yulin: Yeah.

Mary: Yeah. Tell me what you think about that. Why is it that saying no makes us more successful? 

Yulin: Yeah. Well it goes back to the idea of less is more, right? There’s another book on that, or, or, you know, just the whole philosophy and, and I can totally relate to it because for me personally, I’m interesting in a lot of things, right? So I do get to pull myself in many directions because I’m interested in all these different things, though I’m so fascinated with all these things in the world and what happens is that that openness, that curiosity to some extent, will start, if you don’t manage it, then it actually becomes a detriment to what you really want to achieve yourself. What is the most important to you? And I think that’s probably the spirit of what he’s saying too, is that when you’re spread out so thin you can’t really go deep or go much, much higher in any one direction. Okay? 

Mary: So it can lose focus. 

Yulin: Yeah, you lose focus, right? You, you diversify too much, right? So, so in investing we talk about diversification is one of the key things to make sure, you know, your, your financial stability. But then there’s also this concept of over diversification. right? And so same concept. It’s that fine line to keep that balance.

Mary: Yes, yes. I see that sometimes with, you know, I coach women business owners, and sometimes I see, you know, when they’ve got like one business that are more successful than the women who have like five businesses. And I’m like, huh, that’s so interesting. Like how like focusing on like the one thing and really going all in on the one thing can be more successful than, you know, somebody’s got five different side hustles.

Yulin: You know, I think that that’s a very interesting thing that you brought up and I think especially for business owners and, you know, women entrepreneurs. You know, there’s, on one hand from a financial perspective we do promote multiple streams of income. Right? And as a way to diversify your risk right? And so for somebody who maybe just have one job, one source of income, and you know, COVID has proven that some people can be really, really wiped out by something like that, that happens, right? So there’s a beauty in having multiple source of income, but again, I think the problem shows up in the actual implementation that people, you know, they, they get the concept of multiple streams of income so that’s what they wanna do, what they wanna create. But then in that execution path, they forgot that they have to be really good in one thing. Make it stable. Make it passive. So that you actually have the energy to move on to the next. 

Mary: Yes. 

Yulin: So the concept of multiple streams of income, that the key part of that is about being passive. So if you have five active income generating business, you just run yourself crazy. And so that’s why in, in the investment world, when we talk about multiple sources of income, I’m not having really five different jobs. I have five different property or five different projects that I’m managing at a part-time, in the passive capacity, so that, but then there’s income still coming in. I’m not fully running five businesses. Right. So I think that that’s what’s missing for a lot of people is that they understand the concept of I need to have multiple streams of income they think that’s how they’re gonna achieve financial success, but it’s really in how they’re executing it, that they’re actually not really getting the full picture.

Mary: That makes sense to me. I see that for sure, because if you’re running around trying to do everything for everybody, you just have any time, right? You don’t have any time, you don’t have time for yourself, you don’t have time for intentional decision making, right? You don’t have time to build your confidence that you’ve mastered one skill so that you can learn the next skill. So I, I agree. I agree with that. Awesome. Well, let’s wrap up here. What are our takeaways from this conversation? If you were gonna summarize it, maybe your top two, what would be our takeaways from this conversation? 

Yulin: You know, the one thing I say to all of my clients is that even though the work that we do is around money, it’s never really about the money itself. It’s always about self-love and self-respect. And I think that’s also the core, the foundation for having boundaries as well. Is that when you respect yourself enough, when you love yourself enough, then you know you need to carve out the space for yourself to be yourself and to grow yourself. And so setting boundary is a key part of living a well-balanced life.

Mary: Absolutely. And it’s so interesting that when we understand that we’re valuable and we have that self-love and that self-compassion and that self-confidence we actually are more compassionate, we’re more connected, and we’re better boundaried, we’re more financially successful. Right? And so in that sense boundaries help us to be more financially successful.

Yulin: Yeah, absolutely. And then also one other thing, I’ll, I’ll make it really quick, is about the concept of balance. For me balance is a big part of how I live my life, you know, as, as a way of being. I know some people may say, oh, that’s so overrated, or, so that’s just a BS because there’s no balance in life and you know, I think it’s not necessarily the concept of having to be balanced all the time but recognizing and embracing that life is a balancing act. It’s a continual balancing act. And having boundary is part of that equation. And to, to achieve that internal balance within yourself or the balance in our relationship, in our power struggle with other partners or whatever, whoever else is in our life, that balancing act is just part of life and if you can embrace that and acknowledge and embrace that, then it’s not too hard, you know? 

Mary: Yeah. You know, I think one of the things that I hear oftentimes is people say they’re looking for work-life balance. And I , I kind of, I kind of joke around sometimes and I’ve, I have a talk that I give when I’m speaking. Sometimes I say, work-life balance is bs. What you really need is boundaries. But the idea is that unfortunately, sometimes it’s misinterpreted in my opinion, that like we have, we say, especially women, we say, you know, we’re looking for work-life balance, right? Like we’re walking on a balance beam and we’ve got everything in our life over here and everything in our work over here, and we want it to be like perfectly even all the time. And that’s not realistic. Because we’re trying to do both. What we’re trying to do is a hundred percent over here and a hundred percent over here, we have to give ourselves permission to sometimes put down one of those, so that we can show up and be present for something else. Right? And that it just feels really heavy when we’re trying to balance everything all the time. 

Yulin: Right. And I think what you just mentioned is, is key, is that, you know, being in balance or this balancing act, it doesn’t always have to be 50/50 I think that’s probably like a, you know, people just automatically equate balance, meaning like 50/50 because most of the time your balance maybe 30, 70, and that is your balance and that is okay. So it’s actually also understanding what are those percentages in a balanced life for me in this stage of my life. And those numbers can change. 

Mary: Yeah. And being intentional about this is how I’m gonna show up in this phase of my life right now. And I’m gonna feel good about it. I’m gonna learn to build my confidence and trust myself that this is, you know, the decision that I’m making and that’s what our boundaries are about, is being intentional and deciding, this is what I’m gonna participate in, this is what I’m not gonna participate in, not trying to do all of it to make other people happy. And then we get exhausted and burn out, right? Well thank you so much for being here Yulin. I really appreciate this discussion and I know that our listeners will benefit from it. If folks are wanting to reach out to you, how could they contact you? 

Yulin: Oh, thank you for asking. So my website is www.projectm-mindmoney.com. And I’m also on all of social media, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. You can find me just search my name. You’ll find me. 

Mary: Awesome. Thank you so much. Appreciate you being here today.

Yulin: Thank you.