29. Entre-Talk: Boundaries for Better Business Leader, an interview with Dayle Wickizer

Mary: Let’s talk boundaries. I’m here with Dayle and we’re discussing boundaries today. Hey Dayle, good to have you. 

Dayle: Hey Mary. Thanks for having me. 

Mary: Tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Dayle: Yeah, I’d love to. So Mary, I’m a business coach and a business consultant. I work alongside individuals to help them become successful managers and leaders. I can coach in areas of interest, you know executive presence and that type of thing. I also do operational management, fractional operational management, which doesn’t probably really apply to our conversation today. What led me to this and why I am coaching, I’ve been coaching now for, well I’ve been coaching for 20 years, but on my own for the last year, starting my own business.

My background is in technology actually, managing leading coaching men in IT, cybersecurity for banks. And I did that for about 20 years as well as a little stint in home care. And the reason I point that out is because it’s kind of fun because I went from managing in a technical realm, a hundred plus men with financial institutions to then being the general manager. I was looking to purchase a franchise in senior care. So now we’re talking seniors and we’re talking 150 women, caregivers for the most part, and talk about a pendulum swing. And so I’m trying to take what I’ve learned from both those worlds in my personal learning and offering that up to individuals and maybe save them a little bit of the grief on some of the things that I’ve had to navigate, which is why I really love that we’re talking about boundaries.

Mary: Yes. Let’s talk about boundaries. So tell me a little bit, when you hear the word boundaries and you think back over your professional experience, where do you notice that boundaries kind of came up there? 

Dayle: Yeah you know, I never really used the word boundaries. Which I think is a mistake in the corporate world, especially on the corporate side of the house. Now, we talked a little bit more about boundaries when I was in senior care and caregiving and personal care, it came up more often, right? Helping people set boundaries. But in the corporate world, it wasn’t so much the word boundaries. It was things like harassment training, right? We think of it like that. You know setting expectations and difficult conversations. But when you think about it, all of those things are about boundaries, right? They straight up are all about boundaries. Setting those expectations, having those difficult conversations. So yeah, really my first really beginning to use that word a lot Mary was one of your presentations. I was like, oh, that really resonates. And I thought to myself, wow, if I would’ve had that mindset even 20 years ago, and of course we’re younger, we don’t know, but the difference it could have made in not just my own life personally and at work, but for my employees that I managed and the lessons I could have shared with them regarding, you know, work and personal. And you try to do some of that, but you know, somebody who’s trained in it, who understands it, who can give you the language, makes all the difference. 

Mary: Mm. Mm-hmm. Awesome, awesome. I would love to hear more about like what boundary problems you saw when you were working in corporate.

Dayle: Yeah. Lots of boundary problems honestly. I think in most businesses, I think a lot of businesses have boundary problems, and I think they have it around personal, life and work life. So for me, that showed up and for a lot of my teams, because my teams were seven by 24. And so I was on call or escalation seven by 24. So how do you disconnect? How do you set a boundary when you know at any time you know, it could be two in the morning and you’re gonna pull a call and what that does to your anxiety and your health and your stress levels. Right? So I, I felt like I did a pretty good job for the most part, got better as I got older in setting boundaries for my teams. If you are not on call, don’t work. I need you healthy. I need you mentally healthy. I want you to enjoy your family. Then when you are on call, then you are business. Right? But when you’re not, don’t just be nice. Don’t just take that call. We have processes and escalations in place for a reason to help people with their mental health and having time off with their family and stuff. So I think it’s a culture and I also think it’s a, modeling the behavior. So if your leadership believes in it then you model it because if you don’t model it and you preach it, nobody’s gonna follow it. Right? That’s not authentic. So you’ve gotta be really careful here. You’ve gotta do what you say.

So I think it can be abused and I do think it does get abused. You know, I felt like honestly, I myself was on the end of being abused like that, where I didn’t set my own boundaries and people in the corporate world just kept asking more and more and more of me. And I wasn’t saying no and I was getting stressed. And it was showing up in my health and in my personal life. And even in my work life, frankly, I wasn’t my best any longer because I didn’t have boundaries. I wasn’t recharging. So though it’s not a manager’s job, some people would say to take care of their people, it is to some level you are responsible for your people. And so I do think you can do that in a very healthy way. So I’ve seen it show up that way. I’ve seen it shown up where people are basically functioning alcoholics because they don’t set boundaries, they can’t balance their life and then they have a lot of coping tools. Right? So we gotta be careful with that. And, you know, if someone is in that space, they are not showing up as the best version of themselves as an employee, as a mother, as a spouse. They’re not innovative in a workspace. They’re not creative problem solving any longer in a workspace. So from a business standpoint, there are real reasons to set boundaries, you know, model behavior and do that. And I imagine it’s, you know, even more of course now post covid with people working from home and how do we set boundaries when you’re actually in your own home with that. 

So I have seen it kind of abused. And on the other side, I would say, when I was a GM for senior care women, right, such caregivers, right? They wanna be there and not take care of themselves in setting their own boundaries and having to help them navigate, you are no good to me and others if you don’t take care of yourself. Right. That’s really what we’re trying to remind people, that oxygen mask thing. But that is, that’s easier said than done. And so I do think some coaching around that and self-awareness of yourself and your expectations, your values are important. And I don’t know that we encourage people to do that necessarily in the business landscape as much as we should. 

Mary: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You talked a little bit about covid people working from home to coming back in the office, or maybe not coming back to the office. I’d love to dive into that. 

Dayle: Yeah, so interestingly enough, I had remote employees before Covid so long ago because I had teams in multiple states and we worked different hours. So we kind of were having to delve into that concept a little bit earlier than when the covid hit. But these things all apply, right? If you’re working from home, do you turn off your phone at night? When do you set a boundary between personal and not? So for example, how many people, you’re probably one of them Mary like right now I’m in my dedicated office, right? 

Mary: Yes. 

Dayle: Two floors above me my husband is in his dedicated office working. Now we don’t have children at home right now, because we’re coming into summer. So that’s gonna be challenging, right? For the people trying to work from home with families and children at home, which adds a whole nother flavor to how do you set a boundary if you, if you don’t even have a physical space to set as a boundary, how do you work on your emotional boundaries and your mental boundaries and your energetic boundaries? Right. So I think that does get back to being self-aware and mindful and, you know, you know, I’m blocking out this much time, set expectations with your family if they’re old enough to understand, right? You can’t really explain that to a two-year-old, but you find ways, maybe that’s daycare, maybe that’s a nanny that comes in and helps you set those boundaries for yourself. So that when you’re at work, you can be the best working person you are, but you can take breaks and you know, My husband and I, we like to meet on the second floor. That’s where the kitchen is, and that’s where we co-work together and have meals and we know that about each other. If your doors are shut, you’re working. If you’re in this space, then it’s okay, you can talk. It’s, you know, the mind shift has to go with that a little bit.

So it is interesting then to see the companies who want everybody back in the office, right? That think that you can only be productive if you are in an office. And I’ve never subscribed to that way of thinking. I think that is a reflection of people who don’t know how to manage well. Because if you know how to manage well, and you know how to get a productive employees, it really doesn’t matter where they’re at. It, it really doesn’t, but I think it is easier for management to treat everybody the same, to look outside their office and see everybody in their chair, watch ’em clock in, watch ’em be late, judge them, judge them if they’re not eight to five. So I think it takes more work to manage people in a hybrid situation and in a remote, you have to actually know your people. What motivates them, their working style, how to communicate with them. So sometimes I think it’s just kind of lazy management. 

Mary: Yeah. So what are some leadership tools that help to be able to have boundaries in place and to effectively manage folks who are working remote on your team? 

Dayle: Yeah. So it’s gonna come back to one, everybody being self-aware, right? We have to understand ourselves. So especially from an employee standpoint, if you haven’t taken the time to say, how do I work? When do I work best? How do I communicate? What are my values? My family’s important. I need this. You know, you gotta know what you need as an employee so that you can communicate that to hopefully a manager who will actually ask and cares. Right? And then we’re back to communication. So self-awareness, setting your values, being able to communicate which will be helpful when you have uncomfortable conversations. So as a manager, if I have an employee maybe who’s not productive, I wanna understand what’s going on in their life a little bit, I gotta be okay asking some questions in there, right? And a lot of people aren’t. A lot of people have not been taught how to have what they consider an uncomfortable conversation, and a lot of times they let that kind of fester and grow and it becomes something it doesn’t need to be if you would just have the conversation. So I think good communication, setting boundaries slash expectations. So if you have young children at home and your manager knows that, you’re like, okay, I go and pick my children up at, you know, four o’clock from daycare. I’m not available for meetings at that time, but I will come back online if needed, maybe at six o’clock and check my email and see if there was something else I need to follow up on. But again, you have to know the individual. I need to know that, that Bob’s gonna leave at three to go get his kids, but he’s gonna be back online at five, or maybe he starts his day at 6:00 AM. You need to know your people. You need to care. You need to set expectations, you need to communicate, and you need to be able to give feedback. And that’s the other thing people don’t like to give, right? Is feedback. And that’s yet, it’s probably the one thing every employee says they want more of.

Mary: Hmm mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And really encouraging that self-care as well. Right? Right. So in order for, I mean, my perspective on it is that in order for team members to be able to effectively work at home or in whatever environment they’re most comfortable. That individual needs to have clear boundaries about what they’re willing to participate in and what they’re not willing to participate in, and the leader of that team also needs to have clear boundaries about what they’re willing to participate in, not willing to participate in. And we need to be able to discuss like where do these overlap and how can we effectively reach our business goals while taking care of ourselves and being responsible for what we need to be able to contribute here and work collaboratively to be able to actually move forward in a way that’s gonna work for both of us.

Dayle: Yeah. And from a business perspective, you want your employees to bring them their best selves. You wanna create an environment that allows them to be their best selves, because from a business standpoint, then you get the best version of them, right? And you want them thriving, not just kind of surviving. And you can tell. If you really are a manager, a leader, you can tell when your employees are just coasting, they’re engaged, they’re not engaged. But you have to be able to connect. You really have to be able to connect and have those conversations and be comfortable saying, it’s okay if you tell me no. Right? How, but you don’t know a lot of people who will say, it’s okay if you tell me no to that project because maybe you don’t have the bandwidth right now to do it. Maybe you’ve got something personal going on in your life and you know, really it’s teaching them and coaching them them on how to say no. I have too much on my plate right now. I’d love to do that for you, Mary. I really would. But right now I have four other high priority projects and I wanna be able to do those well. So if we can maybe reprioritize my projects, I could take that on. But you know, employees are gonna be afraid to say no.

So we can actually coach them on how to meet their needs and meet the business needs and not have it so fear-based, you know, insecure, that I’ll lose my job. I can’t say no. You know, we need to be able to have those types of conversations because that’s a win. Now my employee’s actually gonna finish his work products. Whatever he is doing on time with a good attitude, he’s gonna know I actually give a shit. Some loyalty. With your employees, and that’s what we all want, right? To work somewhere where our leadership, our managers, each other actually do care about us as human beings. 

Mary: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, when I’m working with people in a personal setting around their personal boundaries, I will often offer the tool of I love you and no, right? So if you’re in a relationship and you wanna be able to say no to a request, then we say, I love you and no. But if we don’t have a relationship where we’re comfortable saying, I love you, or if it’s in a business, right? If it’s a, if it’s in a business setting, it’s corporate, we’re not gonna, right, because then the HR people will be on our case about something else.

Dayle: You crossed a different boundary now, 

Mary: but the idea is that we are honoring the person or we are honoring the relationship or we’re honoring the commonality that we have, right? So in a, in a business setting, that might sound like, I respect you and I’m not able to commit to this project at this time. Or it might sound like I appreciate the work we’re doing together and this is what else I have on my plate right now. Right? So it might just sound something a little bit different Right? In a business setting. And and it should sound different in a business setting. And I think that the idea of, like I appreciate your efforts to move our work forward in this way, right? 

And really honoring giving people the benefit or of the doubt and the most generous assumptions. Right? Like my supervisor may not know that I’m already feeling stressed about what’s on my plate. If I don’t communicate that to them, or my team member might not know that I have a child who’s sick in the hospital. Right? Yeah. Or you know, this coworker might not understand what else I’ve already been assigned by this other project that I’m working on that they’re not a part of, right? And so I think that giving them the most generous assumption that like they’re doing their best to move forward with their goals and the business’ goals, and they’re not trying to make things more difficult for me, and they’re asking me to engage as a team member on a common interest that I also want to engage on. And we just want, we have to have conversations about it, like I think that we need to expect it’s not gonna be smooth.

Dayle: Right. It’s not easy, but anything worth having often isn’t easy. Right? We grow through some of those challenges and you know, I, had the privilege of taking over different teams where I’ve come committed acquisition and I have a new team and we’re learning to build trust. Cause what you’re talking about is trust as well, right? And so you need to come in and get to know one another and each other’s style. Trust one another so that when somebody says, I have this to do, you trust them. They don’t have to give me a whole explanation behind it. I trust them. Right? So that’s what you’re saying is being generous and give them the benefit of the doubt because I trust them. And your most high performing teams are built on trust. So if you don’t have that then managing is difficult, it’s challenging, you try to avoid it right? Having the difficult conversations, right. Everybody’s avoiding that. But if you, if you trust one another and you are all working toward the same goal, value, cause whatever, and sometimes maybe all your goal is, is you like your coworker and you wanna support ’em. You know, you can find that. And it gives you that purpose and that trust to give people the grace that they’re doing the best they can in the situation that they have going on. 

Now, we always wanna come alongside them and offer you know, how can I support you in that, you know, whether you’re the HR people or the manager, a coworker. And I think you’ll see people rally together more when they do have that trust and that bond. And they will be more, let’s use this word vulnerable. And we can use a little bit of that in our workspace. That’s not like going in and, you know, dumping your stuff all over everybody. There’s a way to do that. So that you can connect with one another and be stronger going forward than you know, individually. 

Mary: Right? Absolutely. One difference I hear often when I’m working with folks in a business space is this idea, there’s a misconception that if I say no or if I’m having something in my personal life that you know, I’m managing as well as the work that I’m trying to accomplish that vulnerable like, share right? Somehow absolves us of responsibility. And that’s not true, right? So if I show up and say, Hey you know, I’ve got this thing going on in my personal life that’s making it difficult for me to take on more work, right? It doesn’t mean I’m not responsible for my work. It means, right? It, it means like I’m still responsible and I’m just sharing with you that this is something that’s going on for me so that we can be a team, so that we can continue to collaborate. It’s not an excuse, it’s not a hall pass. It’s not a get outta jail free. Right? It’s like I’m a human being and I’m connecting to you as a human and we want to acknowledge that we all have work challenges and we all have life challenges, and I’m showing up as a full member of this team and that you might be a resource for me, you might not be a resource for me in this challenge that I’m experiencing. But the reality is, is that every person in a working environment is going to be going through something either personally or at work. 

Dayle: Yeah. And so it’s like, we have real lives, so yeah, stuff is gonna happen. The question isn’t, does it happen? How do we deal with it? How do we help each other? Now I will also say on the other side, if you know your people, And you’re a leader and a manager who actually knows your people. You will know when it’s somebody who’s literally making excuses, right? You know, I have had to terminate a lot of employees for many different reasons but you always, if you know your people, you know, sometimes it’s just no longer a good fit. There’s also a way to do that, right? In a, a compassionate way, if you will, because I’ve had people that I’ve had to terminate because sometimes they don’t see any longer that it’s the right fit. So you have to take the action. But I’ve had them come back later in life to me and say, thank you. You’re right, I was coasting. I wasn’t showing up. You know, I just didn’t see it myself, but you saw it. You made that choice, you know, for me, because I chose not to come in and, and do my work, but I needed that lesson in life at that point, and I’ve come back around and really gone on and maybe pivoted in my path. It’s a lot more suited to me. 

So I think when we’re talking about boundaries, sometimes in the business world we get a little nervous, managers we get a little nervous about some of this softness But it’s exactly what you’re saying, we’re not giving them a hall pass, right? If you are managing and leading your people, you know the difference between somebody’s having some real issues and you want them to be a part of your team and you wanna take care of them and bring them around. Because again, when you’re on the other side of that, you’ve come through it stronger together, and that’s really a great bond. So yeah, it’s not all, you know, unicorns and rainbows. We’re not saying that, we’re saying people are real. Life is real. You need to learn how to navigate that and help them navigate that to the best of your abilities. And if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. But you need to be able to look at yourself in the mirror as a manager, you need to be able to sleep at night, right? You gotta think about have I done all I can do for this human being, not just my employee, but this human being. Which takes you back to boundaries because then you have to have those boundaries too. As a leadership and a manager, you gotta know where your boundaries are so you don’t get pulled into that vortex of, you know, always helping somebody else or taking on things that aren’t yours. Right. You get to know your own boundaries to hold strong, to be strong for you, and be strong for that individual.

Mary: Absolutely. Absolutely. So let’s talk a little bit about team engagement and team retention because you know, companies that have clear and kind boundaries are more likely to maintain engagement in their teams and more likely to keep people on their team. So let’s talk a little bit about why that is.

Dayle: Yeah. Straight up. I think a lot of that has to do with avoiding burnout. Right? That’s part of it. I mean, the engagement, you don’t want people disengaged, but at the same time, you wanna be careful not to burn people out. And so when you have boundaries and you know their needs and you know the company’s needs and you find those expectations and how to communicate those, you know, there’s a, the saying that, you know, if you have to replace an employee depending on what industry you’re in, but my industry, it was, you know, in 18 months, it costs you an 18 months in salary to replace somebody. Well, if you’re talking six figure employees, that’s a lot of money. Right? So you’re not wanting to do that kind of a turnover. So you really want to set those boundaries. You really wanna say, when you’re off work, you’re off work. What you need. I need. That, that clear and kind. Keeps them engaged, it lets them have their life plus be successful in the business world, they don’t burn out on one or the other. If they have something happening in their life. Right? Maybe, I always loved that I had young dads. And so, you know, you give, you give them, even before the company I worked for had paternity leave, I gave paternity leave. Because that’s important, as a single mom I knew how important that is to have engaged fathers. So that was something I was fortunate, my company allowed me the kind of the luxury of doing. And so that was important helped them, right? They weren’t stressing at work, going home, stressing with a newborn and a, a mom and, and all that goes with that. They were able to take the time and focus on that part of their life. And that’s important right there. 

So I think boundaries really are everything. I’ll say in my own personal life. If I’d have had better boundaries, if team and collaboration and work would’ve had better boundaries, I wouldn’t have had times when I burnt out or times when I was anxious or times that my health would suffer. You think you are you know, really pushing through it. And you are being quite the warrior when you push through health issues and stuff. But often that’s your body saying you’ve crossed boundaries, right? So you’re not listening. I’m gonna show up some other way and get your attention. Yeah, so I kind of take us off course there, but the retention of that is you’ve got healthy people, you’ve got happy people, you’ve got people who you are literally letting them have a life and not just a job. So they will stay more engaged. Right? But this also comes back to your management and your leadership actually being engaged with the employees. Right? If you want your employees to be engaged, you kind of need to be engaged as a leader and a manager. It goes both ways there. So I do a spiel, a presentation on quiet quitting and, you know, it starts from the point of onboarding because what happens during the onboarding of a new employee; communication, expectations, relationships, and you’re setting the stage. And that’s a perfect way to set the stage, but you need to do it correctly at that point. Bringing ’em on, making ’em feel valued, setting kind, and clear expectations. Yeah. 

Mary: Absolutely. So what do you think’s going on with the quiet quitting epidemic I see around us? 

Dayle: Yeah, I think one covid did help a lot of us evaluate our values and our priorities. And so we have done some resets and some of the businesses maybe haven’t kept up with that reset of values and understanding that, you know, we feel like we can actually work at home. We do feel like maybe we can go into the office. We feel like there’s a balance. I think if you’re not willing to work with people, whether that’s in a hybrid work environment, I mean, what does that say? If you are not willing to work with your people, what does that say? That they’re not worth it. That they don’t have value to you, that, you know, they’re just a number. So I think people want more and they’re willing to quit. And they can, and they can move around. If you’re a talented individual, you can leave anytime, anywhere. Right? And if you’re on the employer side, those are the people you want. And that means you have to really work to hold onto those people. Value them. And yeah, that’s key. And that means respecting their boundaries. They’re on vacation. They’re on vacation, they’re with family. They’re with family. You know, they wanna do this kind of work, not that kind of work. You know, it’s not easy. But again, if you want that type of an environment you’re gonna work with it, you’re gonna have to put the effort into it. You can’t just coast as leadership and, yeah teams. 

Mary: Yes. I think that’s what I see too is that because of, you know, the pandemic kind of created a situation where we had a lot more freedom in our choices and how we work and just kind of accommodations for things that were beyond our control. Then we started thinking about, okay, like, under what conditions am I willing to work and really asking the that question as hard questions about am I willing to, you know, get up and, and drive an hour to an office every day or not? And am I contributing to the world in a way that I wanna participate in or not? Right? And in the past, I think that it was kind of like, well, you have to have a job, everybody has to have a job. Right? And so we were willing to do things because we thought we should have a job, right? And now people are thinking about they’re, the mindset is different. They’re thinking about it differently, about what am I actually willing to participate in an employment space versus what am I not willing to participate in an employment space. And it feels like it’s much more of a negotiation than it was in the past.

Dayle: Yeah, right. It’s more of a partnership than it has been. Right? We get, it’s a little bit more equal, say. And I think the businesses that aren’t able to keep up with that and pivot with the change in the workforce will suffer with that. I mean, we see it all the time in the news. You know, Google wants their employees back. Amazon says this and they try it, and then it doesn’t work. And I mean, everybody’s finding, you know, their way. But yeah, I think it’s, it just takes more effort. It’s more intentional. I think you have to be more intentional. Employers are going to have to be more intentional in how they do this to hold the right people. And we’ll probably see a lot more job hopping. Because if you can’t find it at one, people aren’t afraid to go to the next one now. And a lot of people won’t take jobs unless they can work hybrid or remote because they do see the value in doing that for themselves. And if they can get that kind of work, they will.

And again, your top performers are always gonna have work. They never run out of work. So how do you as a business hold that? Right? How do you hold them on your team, show them their value, make it be a space they wanna be? I learned this long ago, you wanna be the kind of employer where people want to be. Not that they have to be, because the other thing that happens, if people want to be there, you’re not micromanaging them. You don’t have to, whether they’re working from home or wherever at they want to be there. They don’t have to be there. That’s what you want in your employee. Somebody wants to be there and the business are responsible for creating, I think, that type of an environment.

Mary: Yes, yes. I love that. That’s so good. And the boundaries get to decide what I want to do and what I don’t want to do. Right. And oftentimes people will say to me like, how do I know what my boundaries are? And I just say, well, what do you want them to be like? You get to decide, right? And it’s so empowering to be able to think about, this is how I wanna participate in my career, this is how I wanna participate in my life, this is how I wanna participate in this team that I’m on, or this relationship that I’m in. 

Dayle: I have choices. Right? And that’s empowering. 

Mary: Yes. Because there’s actually not very much you have to do. 

Dayle: Not at the end of the day. Right? Even when they joke about taxes and, and death. Right? And I really enjoy that we have a generation, and I know people look at it differently, like, oh, bad work ethic but you know, as the leaders, we have the responsibility to create that space that they want and what they need. And that changes right generationally and we, we kind gotta, gotta pivot with that, you know? I think management leadership needs to be fluid. And I think to be fluid, you’ve gotta be able to set boundaries, talk about boundaries, understand boundaries, which again, to me, it’s expectations. Right? We’re all about relationships, whether they’re at work or at home. You’re talking relationships, you’re talking expectations, and you’re talking communication. And that’s your world boundaries. 

Mary: Yep. Yeah, and they love it. I love it so much. Well, Dayle I really appreciate this conversation. Tell me a little bit about if people wanted to reach out to you, if they’re interested in connecting with you, what would be the best way for them to do that?

Dayle: Yeah, so they can find me on my website at intentionalresultsco.com or email me at daleintentionalresults.co or LinkedIn. Yeah, and I know sometimes people don’t know what they need or what you do, and I always say, if you don’t know, just ask. You know, I do 15 minute free consultations. And if it works for you, great. But if you just don’t even know where to start, you know, ask some questions. I like to think that’s something I’ve done really well over the years is help people kind of navigate what’s next. Where do I go? What would be a resource for me? So I’d love to assist in that. Yeah, life’s a little too short to not if you can get on your path, right the sooner, the sooner the better.

So, yeah. And I love what you do, Mary, because I do think there’s a challenge in trying to get this kind of conversation into some of the workplaces, but I think the business, the return on investment, the business side will benefit so much from that if we can begin bringing it in. Right? Because we’re not work and then personal, we are a hundred percent a whole human being and helping people show up like that and be able to show up in a work environment like that is really important, especially when we talk about inclusion and getting different opinions out. You know? So you’ve gotta be able to have those hard conversations and that is with some boundaries around it.

Mary: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. If you had to take away from our conversation today, what would it be?

Dayle: Oh, a takeaway. Oh, that’s good. You know, I just really enjoyed the concept of boundaries. I really like the idea of giving people grace where they’re at, giving them the benefit of the doubt where they’re at. I think that’s key for everybody to remember, you know, and then that’s built on trust. I think if we can connect at that level personally or at work, that that is always going to benefit us all. 

Mary: Yes. Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate you being here. 

Dayle: Thanks, Mary.